Feel More & Think Less | Dr. Zac Seidler (Movember) | Better Man Podcast Ep. 147

Dean Pohlman: Hey guys, it’s Dean. Welcome back to the Bedroom podcast. I’ve got Zac here again from the Movember research organization. Why is it called Melbourne massacre November Research Organization? But it’s Movember. Do you guys know what I’m talking about? And. Yeah. Zac, thanks for coming.

Dr. Zac Seidler: They saved me there.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So I would suspect that, you know, getting into the position that you’re in as the director of research, there’s there’s definitely a story there, you know? So what got you, what got you down this path.

Dr. Zac Seidler: It’s funny because, you know, depending on the day it’s the there’s so many.

Dean Pohlman: Arcs.

Dr. Zac Seidler: That that led to me being here. And so you need to kind of, you know, pluck one from the air and decide what you’re feeling is the most important, reason.

Dean Pohlman:

Dr. Zac Seidler: But there’s, there’s a mix between like personal and professional, as with anything, when you’re doing something, that has, you know, such purpose and a cause behind it, I think, and so obviously, what was going on at university, being it being a male psychology student amidst, you know, 2000 women in my course, it was the place to be as a young guy, but know it also became became really clear that, you know, there are not a lot of guys in the caring professions.

Dr. Zac Seidler: There were not a lot of guys who wanted to become therapists and counselors. It wasn’t really, you know, what was what was going on. And so I started to like, you know, craft an identity for myself. Early on in my, in my university years, just trying to find that voice of who I wanted to be, what I wanted to do, and was doing a lot of stuff around men and masculinity at the time, found myself, you know, choosing majors that that kind of spoke to me and offered me some of that understanding of, like, why why the guys in my world were kind of acting in different ways, in different contexts.

Dr. Zac Seidler: That was always really interesting to me. I’ve got two older brothers, so that probably played a role as well. You know, just watching the competitiveness and the shit talking and all the other stuff that was going on. And knowing that we all had, you know, different shades, to ourselves. So, you know, I always did like drama and music and stuff at school as well, as playing football.

Dr. Zac Seidler: So I was just like, bouncing between these worlds and witnessing that I was actually, you know, putting on a mask and being a different guy depending on where I was. So I think mostly lots of this stuff came from curiosity in my own life. And then, you know, my dad went through some really rough mental health difficulties and, trying to make meaning of that and understanding when you’re, you know, your role model and this is pillar in your life is really struggling and you can’t access them.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I think I went, you know, I went searching for, for answers. And so that was at the core, really, of what led me to doing a PhD in male depression and understanding how masculinity kind of interacts while also doing my clinical work. And then just, you know, it rolled with time. There was this massive gap in the field.

Dr. Zac Seidler: No one was talking about masculinity in the way that, they are now. Every second day, every newspaper. This was a decade ago, so I saw a gap. I have passion for it. I was really interested and I wanted to make a difference. And there seemed to be, a pathway to do that. So that’s how I ended up, at Movember.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And I, you know, I’ve been there for six years now and really see it as, you know, pretty much the greatest mechanism to make change in this space because of the community that we have. The fact that I get to work in, you know, 30 countries and make this change and, and be able to actually sit on the ground with men and use that therapeutic skill set that I’ve gained to be able to actually listen and not just speak at men, but actually speak with them.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So a couple a couple of things came up as you were talking. So for me, so I was similar, to you and in school like I did, I played, you know, I played, I played the cross and I was, you know, I lived in the weight room like, people knew me as the guy who lifted weights.

Dean Pohlman: But I also was in show choir. I played bass guitar. I was in multiple classes. I was in three choirs, in high school, and I played in two jazz groups. So like, I remember, I remember we were preparing for a concert and my, my band director was like, he’s like, I need you here. I was like, well, I have a game.

Dean Pohlman: He’s like, what if you put your shoulder pads on well, at all, you’ll be able to stay longer if you put your show. Yeah. So I’m like.

Dr. Zac Seidler: No, I’m good.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. But like, you know, so that was, you know, and I know a lot of people are our community did not grow up as athletes, you know, they were the theater or the theater kids or the musicians. So, I think people will definitely be able to relate to that. And then, you know, you’re talking about how you decide this word pops up in the media.

Dean Pohlman: And so, you know, I’m going to table this for now, but I think I would really love to come back to the idea of, you know, what is toxic masculinity? And like, because I think my perception of it is that it’s just people. It’s gotten to the point where people are just like, I don’t like this behavior from you.

Dean Pohlman: So I’m going to call it toxic masculinity. I’m like, no, you don’t just get to throw everything into a box and call it toxic masculinity. That’s not how this works. To the point that, like, I don’t think people know like, I don’t think people know what it means. And I also have been exposed to enough differing opinions that I know that there is this whole group of people who are like, you know, toxic, toxic masculinity, masculine is not toxic, you know?

Dean Pohlman: And so there’s like, you have one group for like decrying all things masculine, and then you have the other group saying, like, no, you need masculinity. And no, there’s no such thing as toxic masculinity. So trying to get some like sort of order pulls these sides sane and like, where’s the middle ground? Like how can we like, move forward and create meaning from this in a way that, like, allows us to take the good aspects of masculinity which have helped society for countless millennia, however long humans have been around, but then also identify.

Dean Pohlman: Well, how is this? You know, what is this? What is what is actually toxic masculinity? So I’ll I’ll come back to that. But, also that that the idea of masks, if you were to this 2000, I think it was a really early book. I was Lewis Howes came up with this book called The Mask of Masculinity, and that was one of the first books that I read on, on masculinity and the idea of, you know, putting on different faces, which, you know, to be fair, isn’t, you know, isn’t, you know, isn’t reserved for just men.

Dean Pohlman: But, I also, you know, didn’t realize this until I got older and started paying attention to some of my behaviors. But a lot of what I, a lot of how I acted was just, I was just putting on the mask that I thought fit that situation. So if I was a group of guys, you know, I would have a conversation focused around hooking up with girls or lifting weights or like, you know, trying to you’re giving people shit or like, avoiding, I’m avoiding avoiding them, aborting conversational intimacy.

Dean Pohlman: So a lot of what I grew up with was just like, oh, this is masculine behavior. And I just generally think about it. And to the credit, the people around me, you know, I think a lot of people were more open to intimacy than I was. And so I think I, I don’t think I have as many friends as I thought.

Dean Pohlman: I might have had because I was so like, oh, I’m a man. And I’ll you about play over here in this, in this sandbox. But Dr. Carter, that was like I thought I was just behaving in a way that would, you know, allow me to connect with other guys. And in reality, it didn’t.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah. So that’s that. That’s the double edged sword. This idea that it’s it’s perceived as choice then that’s the interesting thing. But it’s actually not it’s like fear. It’s fear dictating decision making rather than choice. And that’s why when you end up in a place, you know, where the the age old, you know to be as date men telling each other that they love them, but they couldn’t possibly do that when they’re sober.

Dr. Zac Seidler: It’s like if it’s that if it’s that close to the surface, you know, then then something is going on. And I love when you witness that, everyone start to see each other’s masks. That’s like the greatest exercise when you’re like, oh, you’re all faking it. Like, and actually all of you are seeking that intimacy. You’re just avoiding it for different reasons.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Often some people are afraid. Some people don’t know how. Some people, you know, find it too uncomfortable. There’s there’s many different reasons, it’s unsafe for others, you know. And so I think we need to we need to be compassionate about that. But, you know, shining a light on the fact that there is this universal experience where guys are shifting between versions of themselves.

Dr. Zac Seidler: We spoke about this last week. I, you know, I think that the idea around authenticity is really, really important. And when you are inauthentic and not, you know, acting in line with your values and your needs and your wants, which so many men are doing, and they actually, you know, get so distant and detached from where they actually thought that they would be, you know, you thought you were creating more and more friends, but you’re actually pushing them further away because you want connecting in a in a meaningful manner, and it ends up with you feeling pretty isolated, not only from others, but from yourself as well, because you’re like, how the fuck did

Dr. Zac Seidler: I get here? You know? So that’s that’s something that is so and, and I don’t know if it even happens as much as you age. There’s definitely a lot going on in, in, in high school and, and university where it’s like, okay, I’m, I’m not really sure what is what is best for me to show here. I just want to fit in.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I want to make things work. I want to be a part of something. But you often do the opposite of what’s actually required. And men, you know. Yeah, women do a lot of this as well, you know, masking depending on who they’re talking to. But it doesn’t tend to actually ostracize them. And, and really disconnect them from, from the things that matter.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. I mean, you were talking about getting older and if that having had an impact, you know, all the I think it’s for me, I might have just been so far at the I don’t know if I was at the, you know, at the extreme, I don’t think I was at the extreme because that didn’t that didn’t make sense.

Dean Pohlman: But I think I was, I think I was, but enough into the behavior or the values of, you know, what, I think I was just very I think my values were success, my values were physical fitness, my value was, you know, been, being liked. I like being thought of as, you know, the thought of as a guy who was very smart, very in-shape, very, you know, capable of wooing women.

Dean Pohlman: And that was like, and I think I just was there long enough that, you know, I got to a point where I got to a point of just like diminishing returns where I’m like, this isn’t I don’t feel really happy going was there was.

Dr. Zac Seidler: There was there a moment, Dana? Was it like a slow burn?

Dean Pohlman: I remember distinctly in college I had a relationship with, with a girl who now I look back at that relationship like years after the fact when I go, that was a really special relationship. And, but at the time, I was just kind of like, oh, it’s just another thing. Like, I didn’t really I didn’t really, you know, I didn’t really consider how important it was.

Dean Pohlman: And I remember one night being you know, as one does at a Big Ten university for I don’t know if you know what a Big ten. You know, what you do now because you know, you’re drinking a lot. And I remember, you know, she she basically said, like, I don’t want you here. And I remember just breaking down and crying and walking home in tears, and and I was like, I don’t I mean, the amount of times that I actually cried, you know, probably fewer than ten times since I was like 12.

Dean Pohlman: So, probably even less than that. I did a very good job of noticing when sadness was coming up and putting it back away before it crept up on me. So, so yeah, I do remember at that time thinking like, okay, like, this is not this isn’t working like this pain is this pain is a lot.

Dean Pohlman: And then I also had a moment when I, shortly after I moved to Austin, where I was not that successful, like, I had a job that didn’t reflect, like, any of what I did in university, like I was. I did a lot of really great internships. I graduated with honors, foreign languages, and I was doing this crappy sales job.

Dean Pohlman: And, like, basically my redemption was going out on the weekend, right? And like, you know, getting the girl and after like weeks of this of like, you know, and just like not being successful, I was like, I was with the friend of mine. I was like, dude, this just this isn’t working out for me. This is like, this is not the way to approach life.

Dean Pohlman: I just can’t like, this isn’t this is no way for me to be happy. He’s like, you’re just having a bad night. And so he just had a bad night. You didn’t pull that your bad night, you know? And so, yeah, like, I’ve definitely had moments of that. And then I think just being an entrepreneurial entrepreneur world, you talk with people who have a different sense of what’s possible.

Dean Pohlman: And I’ve just been, you know, in enough conversations, in enough circles where the conversation has shifted to from like, how do we be successful at business? Like, hey, like, how do we be successful at life? How do we how do we be happy? How do we? And that’s shifted more into how do you be more vulnerable, how do you have better connections with people?

Dean Pohlman: How do you take better care of yourself? How do you spend more time doing things that you do want to do and avoiding the things that you don’t want to do? So it’s it’s shifted a lot. For me, I don’t know if I answer your question, but that’s that’s where I’m throwing it back to you.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah. I think that it’s.

Dean Pohlman: It’s.

Dr. Zac Seidler: That just shows that it’s it’s never like a single moment that breaks you. And some people will be able to, to link it to that. But it’s, it’s a reawakening really, you know, that takes place over time when you get shaken to your core about the fact that life is not going, you know, you’re promised things. If I do all of this, you know, if I hide from my own emotions, if I push people away and, you know, constantly seek out physical prowess, financial success, getting the girl.

Dean Pohlman: That’s the rule book.

Dr. Zac Seidler: This is what was offered to me. And it’s interesting to even consider when it was offered to you then. So like, like let’s have a conversation about like where you pick this shit up from because it’s like, who told you this? Where does it come from? How is it so inculcated in your brain stem that it’s like you’re you’re gonna you’re going to bury the things that actually matter to you in order to try and be this guy that you didn’t choose to be, but that someone passed down to you.

Dr. Zac Seidler: That’s what’s really interesting, because the unlearning of that, realization that you are or can be that version that no one’s suggesting that like, you know, seeking financial success and going to the gym and doing all this stuff is not good, but like, open the fucking door, like, how many other pathways are there that you can, you can seek out, that we are we kind of, you know, completely cut ourselves off from over time.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And it’s, it’s realizing that the pressures that have been passed down to us are not of our own making. And that’s when people actually start to freak out a bit because they’re like, what have I been doing? That’s literally where the midlife crisis comes from, you know? It’s like, what have I been doing? What have I been told?

Dr. Zac Seidler: I’ve been lied to. And it’s it’s realizing that your time, your energy, your money, your love, your intimacy should be shared and should be open and should be discussed and should be considered more than it should be, dictated by by something else. Like what? What comes to mind when I throw that out?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. I mean, honestly, there there are not specific people in my life who taught me any of this. I think this is more just like a general culture, you know, a general absorption of culture. Yeah. It’s just it’s TV, you know, it’s TV, it’s movies. It’s it’s like it’s it’s a TV and movies, like it’s not. Yeah. It’s America.

Dean Pohlman: America. Yeah. There’s a, there’s not like, you know, I didn’t it’s not like I had conversations with my dad and he told me these things. No, this is purely like a subconscious absorption. Like there was no, I mean, I think I was definitely rewarded for certain things. Like, I was rewarded. I was rewarded for, you know, perform for performance in sports.

Dean Pohlman: I was rewarded for people smart. I was rewarded for, you know, praised for, you know, getting grades and getting prestigious positions or, you know, leadership roles. So, and I think I was good at that, like, I think so I said, oh, I can be happy if I get success. And oh, people will, like, look at me and say that I’m attractive if I, if I keep, you know, if I have muscles now I people wow.

Dean Pohlman: People like think that I’m, you know, I look at me and they say I’m attractive now or the guys look at me and say like, hey man, you’re swole. You know, like, I remember being in the weight room and and someone was like, you swole? I was like, what? He’s like, you swole you big. I’m like, oh, thanks, man.

Dean Pohlman: So, but like, I, you know, I don’t. But yeah. So I was definitely rewarded for those things. And I think I just kept focusing on being rewarded for those reinforcement cycle.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Feels good.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, yeah. And it was easier than other things that were, more painful. Like, I was thinking about this this week, but there were there are a few three times in my life that I can look back to and feeling very, very ashamed or very, you know, just intolerably strong emotion. The first was I was at a beach and I was looking for my mom, and, she had my water shoes, and I was looking for my mom, and I went to a a different woman.

Dean Pohlman: She was wearing a black swimsuit. She had a different towel, but I was like, oh, it’s maybe my mom borrowed a towel. And I said, mom, I can’t find my water shoes. And she was like, wrong, mom. And I just remember being like, totally ashamed and like, totally, you know, broke out. I was like, oh my God. And I, I was thinking about that last week and I think I’ve thought about it that much before.

Dean Pohlman: But that was my lesson of, okay, never be wrong, never be wrong, never be wrong. Too painful. And well, the other time I remember is my mom saying I was telling my mom I wanted a computer game. Or we bought a computer game at a store at CompUSA, which went out of business probably decades ago at this point.

Dean Pohlman: And I bought a computer game because, it was mad. And my mom didn’t let me have, like, PlayStation consoles. So I got Madden because it was on the computer. Am I cool? I can play the sounding puter and then, try to install it. And I didn’t have the draw graphics card required, like a computer was in shock.

Dean Pohlman: And I said, mom, mom, the computer won’t work for it. And and she kind of reacted like, well, I’m sorry, I don’t have enough money to buy it. Like, we can’t get it. And I just, I don’t know, I just I remember that, but I also don’t remember the emotion associated associated with it. I just kind of remember just kind of shutting down soon.

Dean Pohlman: Okay. Well, now I need to make money. But lesson number two, don’t be dumb. Make money. Yeah. And the last thing I was thinking, the last thing I could think of was, my, I had a dog and, probably age, like 12 to 18, and he, he bit one of my friends and, it was my fault because I wasn’t watching him close enough, and I knew that he was, you know, he would bite.

Dean Pohlman: And, so he bit a friend, and then, did, my dad said, hey, like, where we’re putting Louie down, like, he’s moving in, and, rather than being sad, I just said, fine. Fuck it. You know, I just, like, I was, like, buying.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Well.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So, like, I can look back at my life and I can look at these significant events and say like, okay, like, this is when I could have experienced emotion, or I could have had, you know, or I learned something and, and, yeah, I learned, okay, this is too painful or like, okay, I’m going to do this instead.

Dean Pohlman: And yeah, I took I took refuge in, achievements and stack because I was responsible for that. No one could hurt. No one could, you know, I couldn’t, I could, in fact, at, no one could. Yeah, I don’t know. That’s my there. That’s my. Yeah. Well, now I don’t have to do any therapy or done, or anymore.

Dean Pohlman: What did.

Dr. Zac Seidler: The. No more well done. The the that that like, you know, cried a handful of times and crying is not the be all and end all, but you know, like how do you go do you reckon you’ve come to a point where emotion is more easily accessible for you now? Because unlearning that stuff, like I do this for a living and I was, you know, brought up in the same culture as you just by being, you know, thousands of kilometers away.

Dr. Zac Seidler: It’s the same shit. And, I can cognitively and intellectually access lots of this stuff, but like really working on like the feeling of the emotion is, is self oddments.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. No, it’s easy to think about it. Hard to think hard to feel about it. So, Yeah. So one of the things that I’ve, I consider this a skill I’ve developed recently, though, is instead of feeling the stress and explaining it, I feel the stress and I feel it instead of I don’t go down the rabbit hole.

Dean Pohlman: Let me explain this feeling. I just feel the feeling. I think men need to feel more and think less. This think that’s, I think that would be a huge I think that would be, a huge, growth opportunity for most men is if they just started paying attention to their feelings and not doing anything about them, but.

Dr. Zac Seidler: It’s not seeing it as a problem to solve.

Dean Pohlman: Yes, yes. Like, oh, I’ve got this offer, I feel settle, I can fix it. All right. Oh, I feel I feel unworthy, I can fix that. Right. But just feeling it. But then recognizing that feeling it is the solution. Like, if you can actually be present with an emotion and experience it, the intensity of the emotion goes away.

Dean Pohlman: You know, like, you know, prior to this year, I probably would have sat in my chair and offered and just spent an hour out there thinking, telling myself a story, creating a sense of security around it, and then dealing okay, to move on instead of spending 15 seconds feeling the emotion, noticing where it is my body is in my body, like describing it.

Dean Pohlman: And then, you know, a few seconds later realizing, oh, the thoughts still there, but the intensity, the emotion is past.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Has yoga, has yoga supported that? Because lots of people use that as a, you know, body mind access?

Dean Pohlman: I think it gave me awareness to be able to be able to, I think it gave me the awareness to be able to better access it, access it. But I also think that I, I think it also just taught me that I needed to breathe through things, which is wrong. Like, I don’t need to just like, oh, I’ve got a strong emotion.

Dean Pohlman: Just let me breathe deep, deeply because that doesn’t make it go away. So I think it’s helpful. I think it’s a tool. I think I think if you know how to use breathing to create space between, you know, the stimulus and your reaction to it. Yes. And so practicing yoga, practicing breathing definitely helps with that. But if you don’t, it’s only one of the tools that are required, right?

Dean Pohlman: If you don’t know how to move past the emotion, to experience the emotion, if all you can do is create a pause, then it’s not. It’s not enough because eventually you get enough stress that guess what happens? Your breathing runs out and then you’re yelling at your wife as you’re walking down is you’re walking the baby down the sidewalk.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Like, so it’s, it’s a tool, but not the whole thing. I guess.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah. Not that makes sense. And the, the idea around like realizing where in the body stuff comes from, accessing it, sitting with it and trying to because even that naming that you just did that in before where you were like you know I’m feeling unworthy. So I’m going to try and fix this. Like 95% of men that I’ve met would not be able to name.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I’m feeling unworthy, you know, mean it’s like, I feel like I feel shit, I feel I feel blue. Whatever it is, you got a bucket that describes, like, even, you know, we use an emotion oil in therapy all the time. Like, which of these are you feeling? Yeah. And they’re like, what are these words? I have never seen these words before.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Right. This can be broken up into 20 terms, you know.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Yeah. My son is doing that right now. He’s five. He’s in therapy. And yeah he’s like learning emotions. He he loves drawing. So he brought home a picture from his therapy session a couple days ago where it’s like him drawing. These are what the different emotions look like. I’m like cool. This is great. I wish I had this, but I was.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I was going to say, what what what because I’m about to have it have a son as well then. And like that that.

Dean Pohlman: Idea of.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Of witnessing in him. Because that’s also like a tension between your own stuff, your own upbringing and like, now seeing him do all of this stuff that you didn’t get to do was very uncomfortable for you. You may have been bullied for, like, all of that stuff. Is there like a feeling within you that’s like, I want I don’t want him to do that because I want him to, you know, be.

Dr. Zac Seidler: So you have to, like, challenge some of that stuff in your head.

Dean Pohlman: I’ll say a couple things. First off, I’ll say the things you cannot stand in yourself. You cannot stand in others. So when you see, you know. So when I see my son or my daughter reacting in ways that I find inappropriate for myself, those things that triggers me.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: So, you know, there are the like, you know, and it’s toddler is going to have emotions. Right. But you know, yeah. So that’s that’s the first thing that comes to mind. The second thing that comes to mind is, Hold on. I forgot what the second thing was. So the first thing was the.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Triggers, you.

Dean Pohlman: Know, will trigger all this. Yes. What triggers you will be trigger. Yeah. What trigger? You will be. You can’t stand other people. The second thing, Oh, and the second thing is, even though, you know, I have all these books on emotional intelligence, you can. I have a conversation about emotional intelligence with the child. Uses can’t. So, like, you know, I read all these books, like, I’m prepared, like I’m gonna.

Dean Pohlman: Dude, I am going to I am going to like, you know, I’m going to validate your feelings so hard, and then we’re going to move through. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t doesn’t work. You can’t you can’t validate a four year old’s feelings like he just keeps on, you know, especially mine, especially the spawn of me like you.

Dean Pohlman: You you can’t. The emotions are so intense that you can’t even have a conversation about it. So, you know, I thought that I was going to be like, oh, I’m going to be so good at this. And no, and I don’t know if that’s because, I mean, I guess my first assumption would be, you can’t have a conversation about emotions when someone’s triggered.

Dean Pohlman: Right? The worst time to have a conversation with your your partner about her, not her or him not doing something away that you want done is as they’re doing it, right. Like that terrible idea. So it probably wouldn’t work with the child either. But my other suspicion is that because kids are so intuitive, if you are just speaking about your ex, if you’re just speaking to them about emotions from a logical or logical perspective, especially if you have not gained an emotional understanding of the concept yourself, then it’s not going to.

Dean Pohlman: It’s like listening to a presenter talk about something that they’re not an expert in, right? You’re like, you’re listening to someone sell a course who’s only ever sold a course about selling a course and hasn’t sold the course themselves. Right. And you’re like, I smell bullshit, right? And I think kids intuitively pick up on that. So that’s kind of that.

Dean Pohlman: That’s my experience with trying to have like, you know, emotional, you know, some sort of like, you know, emotional, cognitive, conversation with your toddlers is doesn’t work the way that I thought. I thought I would.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And and witnessing that, you know, triggering when you’re, you’re seeing a type of emotion or an intensity of emotion in them. Did you hide within yourself? Does that like.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Does that make you do anything or does it just make you, like, shut down?

Dean Pohlman: Oh, it makes me mad. Oh yeah. No it makes me mad. It makes me like it did. Heightens me like anger is my default emotion where it’s just like that’s my. If I’m angry people will listen to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I’m angry, I can push through this last set. If I’m angry, I can get the ball and score the goal, you know?

Dean Pohlman: So. Yeah. So I just default to that and, Yeah. And I, you know, now I understand, like, okay, in order to be able to handle this emotion, I need to go back to where I learned this emotion was wrong and then, you know, so I don’t know what the drama is. And,

Dr. Zac Seidler: But what what is anger a placeholder for? That’s always the interesting thing, you know, because it’s people in a therapist always do this. And I, you know, I’ve been, privy to it enough myself where it’s like, anger is just, covering something else. And sometimes it is. And sometimes it’s not like anger has its own place.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But the idea that it’s like, you know, sadness, stressed out or sadness suppressed and then exploding,

Dean Pohlman: Or.

Dr. Zac Seidler: You know, just, a source confusion, as we say, this idea that you have stress or anxiety and you misdiagnose it internally and then it comes out as anger, when it becomes that placeholder for like, a massive portion of the pie. That’s when that emotion will do you, like, oh, three quarters of this is red, you know?

Dr. Zac Seidler: How did that, how did that happen? Like the inside out guy, you know, he’s just like, the anger guy’s just controlling.

Dean Pohlman: You, right? I made him my avatar on Disney Plus.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Of course.

Dean Pohlman: Of course I. No, no, I made deck. I made him deck one’s avatar. My son.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Okay, okay. Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: No, I’m like, I’m the old man from up. Oh, I love that guy. Yeah, yeah. That’s me. Well, hey, we said we talk about you. When did you. When did you first, have some realizations about yourself? Oh, God. What’s something, what’s something significant that you, that you went through or that you, noticed about yourself in this whole, self-discovery journey?

Dr. Zac Seidler: It’s always. It’s always go, man. I think I think, you know, there have been quite a few moments, but I had a pretty, you know, traumatic grief event when I was 20, when my dad died and that’s like a line in the sand, you know, around becoming an adult really fast. You know, having to look after my mom, and, I was already on the way to becoming a therapist, so I kind of took up that role in my family, I think with my siblings.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: When you’re the younger one, that’s like,

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah, exactly.

Dean Pohlman: That’s the thing.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah, yeah. Just trying to make peace and harmony and understand everyone. And no one gives a shit. I’m trying to do, you know? Which was great. But that meant that lots of the stuff that happened earlier, I kind of lost connection with because it’s such a rupture when something like that happens, that it kind of jolts you.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And I’m now strangely, you know, since I found out my wife was pregnant. Am I going through this this journey of realizing that I’m going to become a dad without a dad? Certain things that started coming back to me, and I’ve been, like, willing and able to kind of reflect on things. I’ve always been a very future headed guy and like, everything is is what comes next.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And that’s probably a reflection of, you know, trying to respond to the grief that I didn’t want to I wanted to move forward. And I knew the dad didn’t want any of us to collapse, you know, and and we wanted to, to move on. And so I was always like, what’s next? What’s next? But I don’t want to be that type of parent who’s just unable to sit in the moment or look back and tell stories and like, you know, our family doesn’t do a lot of that.

Dr. Zac Seidler: We do a lot of, you know, the next thing, the next thing. And we’re very successful as a result because it’s like you’re pushing constantly, but it’s fucking exhausting. And I think I’ve come to the point in my career where I’m like, I’ve, I’m enough, I’ve done enough. I’m in a, I’m in a place where I’m happy and I can just like I now I’ve got a big team with an incredible organization where I can actually, you know, uplift other people like and reflect on the things that I’ve done and the learnings that I’ve had.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But from an emotional standpoint, I definitely felt that, you know, moment when dad died or, you know, it was so overwhelming. But the avoidance that followed, of like not wanting to dip into it consistently because I knew it would just drown me. I think that’s all it was for the, you know, next 15, 20 years.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, I think that’s the balance when, you know, I talk about a lot of people who are going through difficult situations like, you know, I had a couple of guys email me, this last week and they said, well, I’m a caretaker and my wife is, you know, stage four cancer. So I don’t have a lot of time to take care of myself or, you know, other people suffering losses or, you know, scary surgeries.

Dean Pohlman: And so a lot of people going through those are like, well, I don’t want to take the time to work out right now. Might work out right now. I’m like, you probably don’t, you know, you got some other stuff going on. And so, you know, it’s always this combination of like, how do you go through the grief, and don’t avoid it.

Dean Pohlman: But at the same time, what’s the balance of, like, how much time do I spend? And there’s not it’s not like, oh, yeah, well, you just do 15 minutes of grieving and then do 30 minutes of yoga. And yeah, that’s the ideal one right. There’s no there’s no ideal, you know, number. But how does that what does that look like in terms of how much time do you give into the emotion versus how much time do you say, like, well, I’ve got stuff to do.

Dean Pohlman: You know, the world. And I think that’s a, that’s the, that’s the most significant thing about grief is there is my, my mom, or my, my wife lost her mom, to, to lung cancer. She was 59. We’re we were not married yet. It was 2017 for 2018, I think. And she,

Dean Pohlman: It’s to her experience as, like. Yeah. Like, you know, my mom died, my whole world shattered, and life just keeps on going, like, no one cares, you know? Like, you just have to keep on going on like nothing happened. So, friends. So. Yeah. How did you, like, do you think that you. Do you think that you really, like, adequately grieve?

Dean Pohlman: Did you did your were your I mean, were you what is your brother’s do. Where did your brother. Yeah. Like we had stuff to do. Let’s move on. Or like what was the, what was your experience there?

Dr. Zac Seidler: Well, you definitely realize very quickly that, because I remember there was a moment where I was like, everyone come upstairs was sitting down. It was like two weeks after, and I’m like, and what, we’re talking about this. No, we haven’t processed this other. And I was, you know, in second year of college, it was just insane. And they were like, who the fuck do you think you are?

Dr. Zac Seidler: And just that idea around, the idea around, how we’re going to actually grieve some of this stuff. You know.

Dean Pohlman: What? No, this is a this is my real life interruptions. Deacon, I’m doing my talk right now. Can I talk with you in a few minutes? Okay. Could we build up the teamwork? Yes. After this, we got a T-Rex. We have to install it.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Oh. Cool. Anyways, the problem. When they get tall enough to open doors.

Dean Pohlman: Yes. You know, they’re both that tall now. All right. Yeah. Go back to what you were saying. I’m sorry. I know, I’ll take that.

Dr. Zac Seidler: No problems. Just the idea that,

Dean Pohlman: It’s after it happened.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah. I tried to sit my siblings down and be like, we need to talk about this. We need to, like, work out how we’re going to process this stuff, what we’re going to do, how we’re going to talk about it. And it was a really, key moment in my life where I realized that people process things very differently, and my way was not the highway, and I didn’t get to decide how anyone was going to graze.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Which was a really important shake up, I think. And, I had, I think, I, I think I definitely felt like the, the severity and overwhelm of it in those first few weeks was really full on, but then it became intolerable to a point where, I was like, I don’t want to sit in this because if I sit here, then I will fundamentally not be able to actually progress.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I will not be able to continue on. And that’s not of interest to me. So, yeah, that was that was kind of what what happened after that? I don’t think it was a purposeful decision to not, fail. But I would I would pick out times, you know, if it was like the anniversary or his birthday or various things, and I would go to cemetery and I would, like, bring it out, you know, I would like unleash the grief monster, which was, very cathartic at the time.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And I don’t feel like I missed anything. And it’s been it, you know, ongoing and this follows you for the rest of time. Like, it’s not something you can you can avoid. So. Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think I’ve, I guess my experience there is I think it’s, it’s hard to call out. It’s like okay great, come for us. You know, it’s like it doesn’t just come out. You’re like, okay, I’m here. Like I want to be sad, but it’s not coming out. It’s like, you know, it’s like you can’t you can’t force it.

Dean Pohlman: But you know, some of.

Dr. Zac Seidler: The weirdest times, you know.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So you. Yeah. Like my my Mike, my wife, for example. You know, for her, it comes up when she can relax, right? Like when she’s running around doing all the stuff, and then suddenly she get to she at the time to relax and then like, the grace, like, okay, here I come. You know, I got you, you you let your guard down.

Dean Pohlman: Ballard gets you, you know, you know something that I was thinking of, and I think this would be really relatable to a lot of people listening to this as someone who prioritizes others before their self, but knowing what you know about self-care and the importance of taking care of yourself, how has that changed the way that you approach self-care or, you know, making your priorities known to other people in your eyes?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, because like I can tell you put other people’s first. So like, that’s why I’m, that’s what I’m I’m just calling it out. Namaste. Because, you know, I started this podcast, I part of this episode saying like, hey, let’s talk about you. And within five minutes you were like, well, what is your experience growing up? I’m like, it’s not about me, but I know where you’re going with it.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Well, there’s a there’s an element of it that’s more comfortable, obviously. I’m like, I prefer to ask questions and to answer them, and it’s not even about avoidance. It’s just like I’m I’m a deeply curious. You ask me why I got into this. I love stories, I love I’m a curious guy. I want to know I like seek out stories and patterns and, you know, I’ve heard enough.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I’ve done enough therapy with guys to, like, kind of be able to piece things together. And I’m always like, where are we going next? So I love that. I want to know what’s at the core of people that drives me. And it pisses plenty of people off. And, you know, so I had fun.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I like I don’t want to talk about that. Yeah. There’s a whole you should. Yeah.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And also realizing that, you know, I’ve definitely that’s another thing that I’ve come to realize, which is that, you know, there is a time and a place and lots of things do not need to be spoken about. You know, some things should be avoided in the right time, at the right place. Some things should be pushed through, you know, and I don’t think that I don’t like this new idea that everything is a trigger.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Everything should be spoken about and processed. Everything is trauma. You know, I just don’t agree with that as a, as an ideology. But when it comes to, like, my own stuff. Yeah, I think that, it’s it’s always easier and more comfortable for me to delve into other people’s lives and then to use that as a springboard, maybe for made it to talk about something that’s happening for me.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But I think that definitely, you know, impending fatherhood has allowed me more space to, like, reflect on who I am and who I want to be. You tell yourself stories, and you tell them over and over again. And then I’m like, you know, have I just, like, drank my own Kool-Aid? I think about that a lot. You know, you say all of these things, especially if you do a lot of podcasts where you’re like, you’ve got your lines.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And then if you actually sat back and heard them, you’re like, where did that come from? And do I actually beleza, you know, so it’s it’s that type of thing which I’m just like, I’m, I’m starting to call my own bullshit out a lot more, which I’m enjoying. And, also willing to like step into that vulnerability.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Which is it like being in that position of power as a, as a counselor or, as that friend or family member who’s like, here to, to listen to others? I’d never found that van vulnerable to sit in that discomfort. But when I’m in the hot seat, you know, being the one to like, really access what’s happening for me?

Dr. Zac Seidler: It’s it’s the talking, the talk versus walking the walk stuff, which, you know, self-care has always being just like, you know, fitness and nutrition and sleep and really clear things. For me, it hasn’t really been, lots of that overt emotional processing. But, my wife, who’s also a psychologist, has like full pulled. Yeah, yeah. Welcome to my life.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But she’s also like, she’s a totally different, yeah, monster when it comes to this stuff because I do like men’s therapy, so I do a lot more of, like, practical, motivational, you know, tips into, personal trainer shit. Sometimes she’s like, let’s sit in hell. Like, let’s, let’s do this, this emotional stuff. And I can’t even handle her.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Like, I’m like, this stuff is so full on. So she’s she’s she’s given me, you know, a reckoning of sorts over the years.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. About, Well, I said we would talk about this, so I do want to bring up the topic before it gets too late. So you are you are a professional on masculinity and somehow, I mean, not somehow you are. So how do we approach, you know, the the idea of how do I I guess I want to talk about toxic masculinity, but I also want to approach it as like a term that’s, that’s also overblown.

Dean Pohlman: That’s overused and, demonizes. You know, too many aspects of good masculinity. So I don’t know. I mean, have you have you thought about this a lot? Have you had. Yeah, I have had become the conclusions.

Dr. Zac Seidler: I thought, and I’ve written about it a lot and the, the so the, the term I have serious problems with and not because I have an issue with the fact that men, you know, enact bad behavior. Like, I think we were all on board and understanding that men harm themselves and harm others in really problematic ways at higher rates than women and girls do.

Dr. Zac Seidler: For instance, nonetheless suggesting that adding toxic in front of masculinity despite the way in which it was conceived as a term. So it was it was supposed to speak to a subset of behavior. That’s what it was supposed to be, which was like, this is, something that is a normative experience that culture suggests is tied to being a man and is actually really, really harmful.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And so that it started out as, as, as a term that actually kind of made sense. It was like, don’t do these things because they’re not good for you and not good for others. Now, as we as happens in this day and age, there’s been a splintering of that. And it’s now been, you know, plastered everywhere, whether it’s the media or social media or otherwise, and being picked up as a, as a catch all term.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And so, as you said, when anyone is doing anything, it then becomes, a demonizing, narrative that you can just label, blanket behavior that men and boys are doing. My main issue with it is that it is not a good motivator for change. So if you have an issue with certain behavior shaming and distancing, the very people you need to engage is the worst tactic you can use.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And when millions of men and boys are saying, I go into the schoolyard, I go into the workplace, and I’m immediately dealt with as if I’m the problem, like it’s a risk based narrative. It’s starting out with deficit. Something is wrong rather than I believe in you. Here is your potential. This is what’s possible. There’s no aspiration that there’s just like that brokenness.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And so rather than that term, because you’re also putting an adjective in front of masculinity. So when people like, no, no, no, I know that there’s different ways that masculinity can exist, I’m like, well, you’ve got you’ve made it a singular term. And so they don’t see anything else. So when we go out, your standards of guys, you know, what do you think about masculinity?

Dr. Zac Seidler: The term masculinity has we use it. They go, there’s always a silent toxic in front of that. And so that’s that that’s the learning that regardless of the aim of the term, which was an attempt at, you know, getting rid of bad behavior and helping society, it’s now become a, a label that is actually undermining our efforts, at safeguarding people.

Dean Pohlman: You know. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think that’s been my experience with some people I’ve spoken with is that it’s like, you know, you know, toxic masculinity is harming us. I’m like, what do you mean by toxic masculinity. Like, do you mean like, what do you mean by it? Like, you know, is it is it men who are saying things that you don’t agree with?

Dean Pohlman: You know, is it is it someone just being an asshole? Is it someone being a big it is it is that toxic masculinity or is that, you know, do we call that something else? Yeah. Yeah. So, exactly. I don’t know exactly your thoughts on this, an I do. So I’m just going to keep listening to you talk on this on this topic.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah. I think that we need to, we need to do better at offering different ways of being for men and boys. And right now we have a singular narrative which is, acting as a self-fulfilling prophecy. So if you say toxic masculinity over and over again, boys, you know, with the Andrew Tate, you know, methodology, just going to be like, you think that I’m broke and I’m going to show you what I’m really capable of, like, that’s that’s what we’re witnessing often rather than going, here are all of these different ways you can show up.

Dr. Zac Seidler: This is what we’d like you to strive towards. Like, why are we talking about toxicity as the norm rather than talking about healthy, positive, aspirational, generative? Like, there are so many other words, that we should be striving towards, that we should be telling men and boys, this is what you need to fucking do. This is who you need to be, rather than this is what is wrong with you.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Because that narrative is directly at odds with what what they actually want to hear. So I think that there’s a lot of promise. Dane, if we and I think that that these doors are opening up now because people are realizing that it’s not working, and the media and, you know, politics need to catch up. And that always takes a little bit of time.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But within culture, everyone is realizing and mums and, you know, women in the workplace are also often now like, I don’t like this. I don’t think that this is actually helping us. I want this behavior to go. I don’t want to be sexually harassed. I don’t want misogynistic jokes. But, you know, throwing this term around as a solution is probably not the way, you know, and there might be a time in future where where that term can exist among many, and that will be a much healthier place for us to be.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. It sounds like there needs to be an example of what does, you know, what does masculinity look like in a way that is powerful and positive for society, and focusing on what that looks like rather than, you know, what the having this label of the other thing says?

Dr. Zac Seidler: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s it’s a wild world out there. And I think where, we’re all trying to just grapple with what is going to help us move forward. And I think that that’s what we should be focusing on, rather than pulling each other apart and, where we’re making progress slowly but surely.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So, what is the men’s. Yeah. What is the Movember work? I almost said men’s health. What is Movember? What is my member working on right now?

Dr. Zac Seidler: We’ve got so much going on. Then we, you know, we do a lot of advocacy and policy and research, obviously, but we’re also doing a lot of just real world delivery where we get in on the ground with athletes, with college students, where we are working with, you know, black youth and community to try and give them that, that sense of culture and connection.

Dr. Zac Seidler: We work with, totally different organizations. We’re kind of the big brother of of Men’s Health, where we try and, you know, help out other organizations with our 20 years of experience, getting in on the ground and, and supporting our community to, to build the connections that are required to help men and boys thrive. That’s that’s where how we see men’s health and with historically being seen in like, the prostate cancer world.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But we’re really trying to open up we do a lot of mental health and suicide prevention now, and I’m more and more focusing on relationships and social connection and realizing that men’s health is a really complex and, you know, open space that that needs to be seen not only as a physical, but as a mental to spiritual the social, that, that is, is all of us.

Dr. Zac Seidler: And within all of us. And that requires, you know, getting lots of men on board and movement, you know, that takes place every November but continues throughout the year. As a reason to have conversations and reflections on who you are and who you want to be.

Dean Pohlman: So as a guy who leads a community and for the guys who are listening to this that are part of our community, what advice do you have for us as a group of men? How can we communicate with one another that’s going to help us just continue to carry the torch forward as improving ourselves as men?

Dr. Zac Seidler: Well, I think, you know, doing the work is my the favorite word, of everyone.

Dean Pohlman: Doing the work. But the.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Word. Yeah, yeah. Now we need we need to we not applying the word? No, we need to get out. Firstly, get out into the world and do things together. Face to face. I think that’s really important. You know, come every November. We have so many events going on. You know, you grow a stupid mustache, you become the butt of a joke.

Dr. Zac Seidler: You have conversations in uncomfortable places. And really realizing, the notion of reciprocity that as, as we’ve done today, you know, I started out and I’m, you know, asking you questions. And then we got back to me and realizing that this is a this is a journey of discovery amongst men and should be work that is done, in conversation and grappling with those uncomfortable feelings, in, in ways that don’t trigger fear.

Dr. Zac Seidler: But actually trigger curiosity and openness. We need compassion for one another, fundamentally, and to come into these conversations with that desire, to reflect and to learn, about ourselves. Like, why are we here? Why are we here if we don’t want to grow and and and growth doesn’t mean avoidance and pushing on and getting more swole and, you know, not ever doing anything about our inner lives.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Because then it catches up with us. So I think that that’s, that’s the type of conversation that we should be seeking within community.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Your, your tagline should be the Walt Walt Whitman quotes. You see Ted Lasso, what is it? I’m curious. Be curious. Not Dutchman or whatever it is, but yeah. Anyways, I’ve got the mug I’ve got believe the the photo in my office, but anyhow, Well, I want to thank you again for coming on. Zach, this has been an awesome conversation.

Dean Pohlman: I’m excited for you, for your your future. You got a few months left of.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Your.

Dean Pohlman: Life as you know it, and then you ask me before the call, is there anything that I that I can tell you like? No, there’s nothing that I can. There’s no way to prepare. It’s just like, you know, nothing other than go enjoy the ride. And, yeah, it’ll all work out somehow.

Dr. Zac Seidler: Looking forward to it. I appreciate the chat.

Dean Pohlman: Yes, I hope to talk to you again, guys. Hope you enjoyed this one. What inspires you to be a better man? And I’ll see you guys in the next episode.

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